{The List-} Economics/Trade

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

OK, I've been thinking that the model I've proposed above could also benefit from Improvements and Wonders which either increase the size of the commodity bonus which a city, or nation, can recieve via the trade network (like free trade zone small wonders) or the gpt that a nation recieves from overseas commodity trades (like tarriffs, for instance)!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

[wrylachlan]

My $0.02:

If I'm gonna buy something from overseas, it has to be cheaper than what I can build at home. In order for it to be cheaper, it has to cost enough less than a domestic product so that after the shipping cost its still less.

As the price of shipping goes down, the less of a competitive advantage you need in order to make it economically viable to sell foreign goods.

So that means two things play into the total amount of trade:

Competitive Advantage
Shipping Costs

If I'm China, the most efficient producer of DVD players in the world, it doesn't matter how little the shipping costs are, I'm never going to buy DVD players made in Greece because Greece has no Competitive Advantage in producing them.

Similarly, If by some freak of nature all ocean liners and planes were destroyed, and the only way to transport goods was sail boats, it wouldn't matter how cheaply China can produce DVD players. The US would never buy them because the shipping costs are too high.
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Building a shipping infrastructure should cost money for the initial build-out, and money to keep it up. This includes roads, RR, air, ocean, whatever.

But if the connected cities aren't good at making stuff, no goods will flow along that that shipping infrastructure, and the maintainance cost will just be a drag on your economy.
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Basic proposal:

Every city has a "Trade Potential" based on its population, tech levels, and certain city improvements. "Trade Potential" is represented as empty silouettes of coins. Your basic TP is the number of citizens you have. Techs will progressively increase the TP. Things like Marketplaces, Banks, Stock Exchange, Factories, Tourist Attractions, etc. increase the TP.

Also, having things that other civs don't increases TP. So while having a marketplace might give you an increase of 5 TP, being the only civ to have marketplaces gives you a 10 TP increase. (Obviously the numbers are totally fudged to make a point...) If you have Wine and no-one else does, you get extra TP.

How much of your TP you actually realize in Gold has to do with how connected your trade system is. If you have no connection at all, you get a very low percentage of your total TP as gold. If you have a full shipping infrastructure with RR, Airports, Harbors, etc. you will get your full Trade Potential in coins.

The way it would be represented on screen is that the top bar which currently shows the total coins, would now show TP (coin sillouettes). Below that on the left would be gray coins representing how much of your potential coins you lost from an inadequate shipping infrastructure. Below that is the red coins representing the number of coins you lost to corruption. To the right, as always is the luxury/Science/Tax.

This would make it easy to see what you need to do. When the gray coins get above the maintainance cost of a road, you build a road, etc. etc.

[Xorbon]

Aussie Lurker:
Interesting variation on the 'limited resources' idea. What thread(s) are you referring to?

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
4/ In my opinion, there is always some general use of resources in normal, day to day life, which could still risk straining resource access!

This could be adapted to my idea. Certain resources (like iron or oil) would be used by the population, while others (such as saltpeter or uranium) would not. The amount of a resource a civilization would use could depend on the total number of population points and/or cities in the civ. For example, a civ could use 1 unit of iron for each pop point, and 2 additional iron units for each city. (The extra 2 units/city could be a way to discourage ICS.) So, in this example, a size 3 city would use 5 iron, and a size 10 city would use 12 iron. The exact numbers could vary from resource to resource. The demand by a civ would vary with tech level.

There should be a penalty for not having access to a resource. (Or having access could provide a bonus. Then, lacking a resource would simply mean no bonus.)

This idea could also work for luxuries (with the bonus being extra happiness).

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Just had some other issues I wanted to discuss in relation to the trade model I've proposed above!

1) Firstly, Harbours and commercial docks would have basically the same effect on commodity trades, overseas, as roads and rail have overland: i.e. harbours grant +5%, and commercial docks provide +10%.

2) Trade routes for both commodities and standard trade will follow the straighest, shortest and most LEGAL route (according to normal 'pathfinding' techniques'). An option should be allowed in the game where you can ask to see ALL active trading routes for your goods.

3) Any cities which lie on the path of an active trade route will gain bonus revenue and happiness in that city. The 'influence' of the mercantile class within these cities will also be improved!

4) Certain units (ground, air and naval) will have the ability to 'see' a trade route when they are within a certain number of hexes of its path. The computer will inform you, via a pop-up, if you have detected another civs trade route.

5) In order to pirate/block a trade route, you just need to set a unit to one of these two missions. Then, if said unit is able to sit on another civs trade route, until the end of the latters turn, then you have a % chance of either breaking the route, or recieving gold from it, based on the strength of the unit performing the mission.

6) Certain units will, for the purposes of piracy and embargoes, be able to exert a 'ZofC', which allows said unit to pirate/break an active trade route from 1-2 hexes away. This will be available as a unit 'flag'.

7) In diplomacy screen, a civ can declare an embargo against another civ. This would not only sever any existing luxury, bonus or strategic resource trades-but would also sever any underlying commodities trade. Any trade which normally passes through this civs territory would also be blocked (forcing a renegotiation of said trade with the third Civ).

8) The only way to get around an embargo is by building a Small Wonder called 'Black Market', which I have described previously in relation to Banned Resources. To reiterate, Black markets increase corruption and happiness in your empire, whilst reducing war weariness and culture in your empire. The biggest bonus, though, is that allow you to trade goods (both resources and commodities) to civs who have blocked your normal trade or with whom you are even at WAR!! Not only do you get much more gold from such smuggling operations, but you also increase the corruption levels of the civ you're 'trading' with! To be fair, though, they also gain the benefits of these trades (as do you!)

9) The only way to break 'smuggling' trade routes is by direct intervention, either via war or interdiction (see (5) and (6) above!)

Anyway, hope you like my suggestions, and I look forward to any thoughts people might have on them!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

[Dr Strangelove]

I too prefer CTP style trade. I'd like to add that trade should become possible as soon as you discover a country. Trade should not have to wait until there has been an exchange in ambassadors or for the partner nation to build a port or road. Perhaps the exchange of ambassadors and the erection of connecting roads and ports should increase the value of trade, because these events represent a potential increase in capacity.

[ThePlagueRat]

Ok, some polys like unit trading, and I admit to be one of them!
I just think it should be implemented differently in the future.


Tradable resources and products:
First resources must be quantified, they should not use the silly and unrealistic Civ3 principle. Then it would be no point in buying Civ4, would it? With a better resource based system, product 'modules' could be traded instead of whole units. The reciever would have to use his own manpower though. One module of 100 bronze-arms, and one of 100 bronze-armour, could be required to build a basic spearman unit in a resource based system. To get a better spearman you should have iron working and iron resources. It would give you the ability to upgrades the same unit type, just like in the C3C: RoR-scenario with Legion type I, II, III, IV.


Product trading, and helping allies:
Also you'll have to take out let's say 100 manpower from the cities, and use the gathered resources like iron or bronze-ore for the production in the city which will become a module. You can then use it for the unit, or the module can be traded with other players! This way you can send over tanks to help a coutry that has little manpower, but good cash. Would be suitable since tanks should have low manpower use. Would be more realistic and more fun than the old style unit trading... and here you can trade specific quantas of resources as well, of course for a cheaper price than products.

[edit]
I do not favor manpower trading, as that would complicate things and could make MP-games too unbalanced.
These are your loyal subjects, and nobody else's!
If you want to help a poor ally, you may of course send your own army under your own control. So it's not a problem.

[DarkCloud]

I think this belongs here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=114702 rush building: a magic world? ... grap1705

[DarkCloud]

also of note:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114718

[Skanky Burns]

*Bump*

[Master Zen]

Please include the ability to put military units in the bargaining table, that would be soooooooooooooooo cool

(Civ2 had it but the AI was clueless on how to use it, you could frequently offer carriers to the AI and they're refuse it out of pride )

[Drachasor]

http://www.leopold.iastate.edu/pubs/speech/files/The_load_less_traveled.pdf

While it is true perhaps that in many places food doesn't travel far, it will travel *VERY* far to get to a trade center (2000+ for vegatables to get to Chicago, for example, and other things traveled more)

In a more planned economy or with proper tax incentives, it could travel far to get to other places.

Frankly, places with a ton of trade potential should be getting influxes of food from farming regions. Those regions shouldn't need much population either. It is silly to think you need a population of 100k+ to farm a region with modern tech. As you advice population should move to trade centers while you maintain the same food output.

Perhaps all of this can't be implemented, but the basic idea that food automatically travels to trade centers should be in the game (naturally it travels more as the game progresses and as you build roads/rail).

-Drachasor

[Lawrence of Arabia]

roads and rail must cost upkeep.
there must be a wonder which halves upkeep. (very expensive of course to build)
roads and rails no longer give +1commerce to all squares.
railroad station (must have rail connection to capital) gives +1 commerce in all squares

[piratebrun]

I really did like the Colonization resource model. This might get too complex for a game with as many eras and resources as civ though. I do like the idea of getting specific resources from the land/resource deposits, and finished goods too for trade. Also horses should be able to be "found" as resources then moved into the city so they can be "grown" (using food) once acquired, then traded with civs who have no access to these.

A warehouse building (ala Colon) could be built in cities to make storage space (no warehouse, 100 of each max, warehouse1, +100, warehouse2 +200, etc...) Supply would be per city, perhaps you could click on the city, get a popup menu, click "send goods" then click the good, how much, and to what city (be getting tgt cursor and clickon city), and it will be dispatched automatically (via auto-caravans or built&stocked caravans). Once cities are linked via RR's then strategic resources will be in a "regional pool" of RR connected cities. Perhaps food could be shared reginally via RR's too. Harbors/airports... they would fit in as well somehow. Perhaps commercial docks would allow oversea areas to be linked to the same "region".

Also resources would have to spawn more, but perhaps each deposit only give +1 resource (goes to closest warehouse) but you can link up (smoething like) 15-20 irons then get that amount in your warehouse each turn (then you can shuttle around via caravans/RR's) then each "finished" good would take one of each required resource. perhaps maintenance for buildings (factories need 1 iron each turn, if no iron, no bonus from that building that turn)

Could be:
RAW RESOURCES:
Horses (for mounted units)
Iron (for many things)
Coal (for RR's & PP's)
KNO3 (Saltpeter) I prefer Sulfur instead (same use though)
Rubber (many uses) - replaced later with component Synthetic Rubber
Oil - replaced MUCH later with Synthetic Fuels
Uranium - replaced MUCH later with a product of Fusion Power (MAYBE)
Aluminum
Timber (for building WOODEN larger ships) - available in any forest - if timber is added, then timber/stone would be needed for many buildings?
Stone (for building structures) - available from any mountain/hill

FINISHED GOODS:
Spears (no resource) - spearmen
Pikes (Iron) - pikemen
Muskets (Iron+KNO3) - musketmen
Rifles (Iron+KNO3 or none) - riflemen
Light Machine Guns(no resouce) -guerilla
Machine Guns (Iron+rubber) - infantry
Mech Inf (Rubber+Iron+Oil) -mech inf unit
Swords (Iron) - swordsmen + med inf
(sidenote: horsemen would be horse+spear, knights would be swords+horses, cavalry muskets/rifles+horses...)
Tanks (Iron+Rubber+Oil)
Fighter (Oil+Iron/Aluminum?)
Galley (none)
Frigate (Timber+Iron+KNO3)
etc...

To actually MAKE a unit, a population unit would be dragged and dropped on the "city units area" (again ala Colon) then a list of what units were available via the existing finished goods would be given.

obsolete finished goods could be sold to lesser equipped civs for whatever the lesser civ will offer in trade, or "recycled" for their base components at a rate of something like 1/2 - eg 50 muskets could be scrapped for 25 iron/25 KNO3.

for finished goods, to make/equip a pop unit with them would not only require the resource, but the tech perhaps? or at least a tech to "understand" guns well enough to use them? or mebbe not, indigenous peoples have had no problems soon adapting to modern warfare technology if they have access to it.

just some thoughts, i have more ideas to flesh out on this as well

Just played some colonization again to help me refresh my ideas too

[piratebrun]

Oh yeah and the "synthetics" - oil & rubber, could be made once the req. technology is available, then be made with 1 food= 1 synth unit, then they would merely stockpile the rubber and oil slots, and be traded as other resources. perhaps a certain improvement would be needed to manage this conversion, there needs to be some mechanism for conversion though.

also food output would need to be increased across all ages for the extra pop units required to man your army, and especially in the later ages as you would need food to make synths as well.

also (again ala Colon) military units could be "demobilized" and the pop unit could be added back to the city (losing any veteran status) and then the hardware (sword, tank, plane, etc) would go into the warehouse/reserves.

[123man]

Definately should be ability to store resources, where a tile generates a certain amount of a resource per turn and it can be stored, used for units, used for refining (ala Colonization) or traded. Need to had different types of factories for refining different resources and producing different manufactured goods. Aslo should be able to combine resources for making goods.
rubber, aluminium, etc for cars
metal and oil (plastics) for TVs

wood, stone and building materials should also be resources.